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Community Forums › The Discussion Group for George Bradford's AFV News › Artillery Forum › ID Help Needed - Anti-Tank pieces?
ID Help Needed - Anti-Tank pieces?
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Massimo_Foti
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:21 am
Post subject: Re: ID Help Needed - Anti-Tank pieces?

Now I wonder how the austrian model looks like... Could it be it looks like the swiss model and the gun with the muzzle brake is indeed austrian? Anybody can help?

The swiss guns usually have the swiss cross stamped on the breech.

Massimo
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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:37 pm
Post subject: Re: ID Help Needed - Anti-Tank pieces?

Of course, I should have posted that before - from the one the museum has identified (apparently accurately?):





Neil
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Massimo_Foti
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:47 pm
Post subject: Re: ID Help Needed - Anti-Tank pieces?

That's the italian one. Build by Ansaldo in 1942, in Pozzuoli factory. This confirm the identification

Do you have something like that for the gun with the muzzle brake?

Massimo
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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:52 pm
Post subject: Re: ID Help Needed - Anti-Tank pieces?

Unfortunately, I dont think so... In fact, I recently had the pictures in the same folder - thinking they were the same gun. I was going through my photos and realized they were indeed two different guns. Unfortunately, it doesnt appear that I took any breech photos of the second one...

Neil
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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:12 pm
Post subject: Re: ID Help Needed - Anti-Tank pieces?

Massimo_Foti wrote:
The one without the muzzle brake looks italian (same for the gun in Borden).
The gun with the muzzle brake matches the swiss model. I wonder how it end up in Aberdeen.

Massimo

Perhaps its an original Austrian Böhler? - assume some were used by the German Army and then probably captured by the US Army and brought to Aberdeen?

Neil
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Massimo_Foti
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:36 pm
Post subject: Re: ID Help Needed - Anti-Tank pieces?

Quote::
Perhaps its an original Austrian Böhler?

That's possible, or even an austrian gun used by the italians. But we are just wild guessing Confused

Massimo
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Michel_Krauss
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 5:26 pm
Post subject: Re: ID Help Needed - Anti-Tank pieces?

Hi folks

I did some research
At the beginning of WW2 there where some various users of the 47mm Bohler

The main user being Austria / Switserland / Italy / The Netherlands / Russia
The guns that where captured by the German army all recieved an German iventory number - 177(i) / 187(h) / 196(r)
Obvious the Austrian and Swiss guns did not recieve an special inventory number

The German army used them only at the beginning of the war on all fronts, so Eastern Europe, Africa, the Balkans, etc
After becoming obselete most of them moved to training locations or coastal defence, some remained in front line service as infantry gun

So the gun can be picked up at allmost any battle field

I also tried to find some picture's of the gun at Austrian websites, the result was almost none
However I found an picture of an Autrian Bohler in an Autrian army magazine
The complete text is german only, however on page 18 is an nice picture
www.bmlv.gv.at/sk/lask...032008.pdf

The picture is not very good, however the wheels and muzzle brake are recognizable
Rims are of the spoked type, however that where an lot of artillery rims at the start of the war, later they changed to closed disc like type's
There is also an muzzle brake, which appears to be with the big slots

That about the idea that the gun is picked-up on an battle field somewhere in Europe or Africa

And now for an new idea Mr. Green
Is it not possible that the US army bought the gun before the war Confused
I know they bought some German 37mm PaK for testing, so why not an Austrian 47mm Bohler?

Michel

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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 5:40 pm
Post subject: Re: ID Help Needed - Anti-Tank pieces?

Aha! I appear to have resolved the mystery, thanks to cross-checking against the Ordnance Museum's other 47mm anti-tank guns...

The Museum has this mystery piece identified as a Finnish PstK/39 47mm anti-tank gun.

Here it is on a different display inside the museum - again, I failed to recognize before that this was the same gun.











Neil
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Michel_Krauss
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:40 pm
Post subject: Re: ID Help Needed - Anti-Tank pieces?

Good thing to have it identified Mr. Green

However this also raises an new question Confused

How did an Finnish PstK/39 47mm anti-tank gun end up at the Ordnance Museum ???
According the description the Finish army only had 32 guns, so it was not widely used
And to my knowledge Finland only was at war with Russia during WW2

About the description
There is an little error in it about the crew protection, or better the lack of it
The gun could be fitted with an gun shield, however this was hardly ever used in service
That is an error of the gun crew, not an design fault of the gun

Michel

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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:45 pm
Post subject: Re: ID Help Needed - Anti-Tank pieces?

Michel,
It appears to have been a recent acquisition by the museum - 2004.

Neil
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Michel_Krauss
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:05 pm
Post subject: Re: ID Help Needed - Anti-Tank pieces?

Quote::
Michel,
It appears to have been a recent acquisition by the museum - 2004.

Neil

Those the Finish army have more of them for sale?
Would an nice little gun to scare the neighbours Mr. Green Mr. Green

Michel

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